Nostr is a tiresome straightforward P2P protocol that works, constructed by builders

So how does nostr imply to solve the notify the place there might be, in actual fact, quite a shrimp bit of direct material that you need to filter, whether or no longer on memoir of it makes for a bigger journey for the folk utilizing this protocol to examine with every diversified, or on memoir of there are some reasonably exact regulations about things that assorted governments require folk to filter?

//… is a reasonably decent rundown of a combination of this stuff; it’s some distance particularly pointed at Elon Musk’s resolution to put off Twitter and kind it a haven for “free speech” but it indubitably is a appreciate at what is in the future for someone developing a “free speech” platform.

My journey as any individual who has been operating a Mastodon server since 2017 is that while “we are inquisitive about FREE SPEECH, we biggest block what the manager ABSOLUTELY requires us to dam!” sounds noble, in note nodes of the Fediverse that impart this turn into havens for folk which might be biggest there to be assholes to diversified folk, and any sane admin will direct and block the total server, on memoir of or no longer it’s upright going to be a power source of shameful execrable bullshit.

That is a grand article, and balancing free speech with censorship is a robust notify. Nonetheless it becomes a fixed headache biggest on centralized platforms, the place no quantity of resources can realistically display screen and filter all direct material. This scales in complexity as the platform grows, which is the intention of any centralized carrier. And if the business model depends on promoting, it becomes even messier and fundamental to its existence.

P2P services OTOH work on a decentralized and pull model. Customers part and largest subscribe to the direct material they’re drawn to. Censorship is distributed, and or no longer it’s an difficulty for folk that put no longer esteem to head making an strive bid direct material. It be the components the facts superhighway works, and the current components of taking out still direct material applies to P2P services besides. Since there are no advertisers to assuage, or no longer it’s no longer an existential notify.

You didn’t resolution the seek info from.

The seek info from became, to wit, >How slay you withhold CP off it?

Your resolution became: >I manufacture no longer, upright don’t possess a look at the CP.

The difficulty indubitably in seek info from here is:

That you might per chance additionally possess got upright created a brand fresh distribution components for this form of thing and punted the consequences for any individual else to address.

(Which is totally chilly imo, but newsflash, request to be the realm of a success share some time in the forseeable future. It need to not steal long; both for right criminals to situation up on it, or for LE to complete it to “snare unsophisticated actors”).

Welcome to the Internet, the place we cannot possess/kind nice things anymore.

How slay we cope with objectionable direct material already on the facts superhighway? It will get taken down by regulation enforcement of some nation that finds it objectionable, and we tackle the case in courts.

A brand fresh protocol that makes this direct material more accessible is no longer an difficulty with the protocol, but with society and the draw we judge to address it. If CP is chanced on to be served by nginx over HTTP, is that an difficulty with nginx or HTTP?

If the relaxation, centralized services biggest kind the notify more strong to address, since they’re expected to support the requires of governments, companies and regulation enforcement companies worldwide, while one draw or the opposite being the arbiter of free speech. Those are very now probably not desires to prevail in, and lag against the distinctive form of the facts superhighway.

This discussion is as ragged as P2P protocols. I am certain that if Nostr turned a favored components to part copyrighted direct material, governments would strive to fight it, upright as they’ve done sooner than. Nonetheless at the identical time, censorship is no longer something a protocol ought to aloof care about, and upright esteem BitTorrent prospers as we order time, with ample interest, Nostr would also earn a kind to persist.

In many European jurisdictions, that you might additionally very well be criminally accountable for the relaxation that makes it onto your systems, no topic the draw it got there.

So, the OP has upright given folk a complete fresh components of making themselves accountable for illegal direct material, upright by operating the P2P machine in seek info from.

Most ceaselessly, the police are not drawn to hauling a carrier provider into jail, they wish to haul in the one who set that direct material there. Nonetheless this does kind a pleasant shrimp lever that the police can inform against any carrier provider.

Nostr skill that you can specify who and what you subscribe to, so except you subscribe to every little thing and all people that is no longer an difficulty. That you might per chance additionally additionally subscribe to followers’ followers and amplify that components.

Unlike what OP says Nostr relays are no longer tiresome, they can possess their be pleased insurance policies and to me they give the influence of being esteem a bigger version of Mastodon servers. They’ll possess identities, “topics” and insurance policies as they wish. On Nostr or no longer it’s very shapely for one relay to biggest allow certain forms of direct material and block every little thing else. Customers can upright connect with lots of relays in the event that they wish to read/write about diversified things.

What bugs me about it’s some distance their naivety to solved technical complications. For event, they resolution the seek info from of “why this hasn’t been done?” with:

> I manufacture no longer know, but I give it some notion has to complete with the truth that folk making social networks are both companies eager to kind money or P2P activists who must kind a thing totally with out servers.

Other than it has been done. Basically, that’s literally what KaZaA became with its “superpeers”. And what they realized became that by making a semi-decentralized draw, they upright presented the weaknesses of every and each systems (slack downloads by assignment of peer-latency and community limits + straightforward censorship by killing relays/nodes). To boot to, here is precisely how IRC works, no topic the truth that it’s largely traditional with a pair of nodes at the second.

I’m no longer against semi-decentralized systems. They’re grand and support cope with some scalability complications; but they don’t solve for the #1 difficulty most folk interesting to decentralized are in quest of (anonymity, privateness and free speech), so it’s no longer shapely to review it to platforms/protocols that slay provide these strategies.

They might additionally very well be young and unaware of “solved technical complications,” but they’re beefy of vitality, and each generation has to relearn the identical things.

Nonetheless as for peer latency points or straightforward censorship by killing nodes, I manufacture no longer peek it. Nostr has fan-out, but no longer as grand as RSS does and I manufacture no longer request superrelays.

I also don’t note you on the notify of anonymity or privateness. The fellow who began it fiatjaf is nameless. We do not know who he’s. And likewise that you might additionally additionally be too. Correct kind up a key, manufacture and imprint an event, and push it into no topic relay takes your esteem… by Tor if that is your thing.

I manufacture no longer know about KaZaA but I commit it to memory became very favorite for a time, so it can per chance additionally possess done some things upright? What became its destiny? Was it censored to death?

And I disagree very grand that IRC is “semi-decentralized”. IRC is totally centralized, it’s some distance upright chat rooms on a server. That you might per chance additionally possess gotten to register on every server and each server has beefy withhold watch over over its rooms and users.

I am certain the total script kiddies who most popular to steal over channels in netsplits are gonna be disappointed that they by no components indubitably did that now.

More seriously, here is the second time I’ve seen any individual on here symbolize IRC in this (very unsightly) components in the final day. The place is this coming from?

IRC networks are made up of servers that relay (hence Internet Relay Chat) with every diversified. You connect with one server and that you might additionally keep in touch each and each with folk native to that server and folk on diversified servers which might be portion of the identical community (including ones that server is now in a roundabout draw connected to). Channels prefixed with # are shared across all servers in the community, while channels beginning with & are native to that server (even when infrequently traditional).

Section of it’s some distance that for users IRC undoubtedly items as centralised. You do not veritably connect with a bid server, but rather a community that did some load balancing in the background. Bask in you in general connect with and no longer probably the most sixty servers particularly.

Scale is difficult, but for exiguous-to-medium sized clusters, that you might additionally inform your be pleased node, or a mates’. Now you possess your be pleased copy of the ideas, and withhold watch over over latency. Basically the fundamental insight with nostr is the multi-master architecture.

Relays can censor as grand as they wish, since they’re biggest stewrding a exiguous portion of the community, probably replicated in diversified places. As to building in recommendations to curate/practical direct material in a distributed components, there are many ideas accessible as to how that might additionally happen. This is an difficulty I opened upright the diversified day: //

Sure here is the crux of any social media application. I manufacture no longer know if there’ll ever be an awesome solution.

I esteem that nostr abstracts this notify some distance from the relays. Relays biggest cope with storing data and going by subscriptions. They’ll steal to censor and/or curate direct material if need be, but it indubitably’s no longer their difficulty.

It be as a lot as the client to arrive up with an answer, and that client in general is a platform or a protocol of its be pleased.

edit it also feels indubitably grand to work on that notify from the applying layer. I will arrive up with an answer that is no longer confined to the guardian protocol.

I would esteem this form of protocol to be designed so servers, relays, etc. are unable to censor direct material at the protocol level (if any individual creates it, it’s some distance on hand) and the filtering is done on the client aspect.

Recurrently filtered things (memoir block lists, put up flag lists, filter guidelines, etc.) might additionally very well be shared by assignment of the identical draw — certainly there might additionally even be competing variations and all people might additionally note their most popular filter source.

Customers would also probably bustle statistical and machine finding out based fully unsolicited mail and direct material filters in the neighborhood (per chance on a deepest relay/server of some kind, or an memoir on a shared one) configured to their preferences.

I would request the infrastructure operating this form of community to be in the identical convey as Signal, who slay no longer know the direct material of messages and cannot censor them, leaving particular person purchasers to work out blocking etc. (albeit the client aspect strategies besides as recommendations to part configurations etc. would ought to aloof be rather more develop ed for a social community or identical than for a messaing app).

Correct silent them. Or upright note who you note and not utilizing a ideas of diversified folk. Or relays can possess a censorship policy in accordance to the regulation or team standards or the relaxation they wish… and the folk will inform no topic relays work for them (in general lots of relays to possess a look at lots of crowds). Some folk need censorship, some don’t, the protocol is totally agnostic on this point.

I seen you possess no longer shared your electronic mail address in your profile. Absolutely if muting is ample that you might settle for that or no longer it’s some distance a possibility-free motion?

> r on memoir of there are some reasonably exact regulations about things that assorted governments require folk to filter?

There are exact regulations protecting copyright in every single place but it’s some distance stilm trivially straightforward to search out copyrighted direct material on hand at free of price on-line. Authorized pointers dont imply the relaxation except they’re or might additionally additionally be enforced.

How does your client (or any nostr client) cope with discoverability?

I am no longer piling on nostr here, that is an difficulty with ActivityPub besides as most decentralized platforms/protocols?

A bit of disappointed about that indubitably. For a second I believed any individual had done a sane version of Scuttlebutt, but alas 🙂

Even supposing at this point I probably would no longer inform that both.

Final time I checked it out it depended on JS-bid behaviour which had to be replicated in diversified languages. It looked esteem something became written first, and then they made up our minds to extract it into a spec.

Per chance this has been cleaned up for the time being, but at the time a bunch of apps for it already existed so it became probably to late to return.

That, and the insistence on 1-1 machine:identity mapping (so that that you might no longer inform the identical memoir with lots of devices). And verifying an append-biggest log, so “tag me Jane’s fresh posts” cannot happen till or no longer it’s downloaded & verified signatures for Jane’s complete put up historical past going wait on years.

I am origin to deem that ActivityPub might additionally no longer ever add anti-censorship strategies into the core protocol (for instance, impartial IDs that put no longer continue to exist a relay server). Because I spoke with a core developer on ActivityPub stuff a pair of years previously in regards to the notify of servers going offline and dropping your memoir and he stated that he became engaged on it.

Nonetheless I would no longer be greatly surprised if he became wretched from continuing this work on memoir of in the slay folk esteem ActivityPub on memoir of server admins might additionally additionally be shrimp dictators that censor and ban at will.

> on memoir of in the slay folk esteem ActivityPub on memoir of server admins might additionally additionally be shrimp dictators that censor and ban at will.

ActivityPub isnt the fitting distributed thingy to learn that lesson. There are a motive the many ultra-free-speech hosted on the black web, things by no components steal off.

I deem the architecture is the notify. No person wants their memoir owned by a random guy operating a server as a hobby.

Clearly they’d additionally no longer add the relaxation, and in the event that they add no one goes to put into effect.

Mastodon, Pleroma et al. are no longer indubitably ActivityPub implementations. Every of the fediverse purchasers put into effect some random 10% of AP and upright strive to get suitable with every diversified utilizing dirty hacks.

A mammoth profit to many grand projects is separations of concerns, particularly in the case of protocol (or API/etc) vs policy.

From the sounds of it, you possess the protocol but no longer the policy. Which is by itself huge that they’re separate, but now the customers (?) wants versatile policy, no? Otherwise its upright going to flip into a billion folk all talking in the identical room, or your going to possess a ton of tiny rooms and not utilizing a process. The discoverability of exciting rooms would per chance be strong. Its sorta the IRC notify in a nutshell (or discord/etc). Balancing the noise, vs the unexcited is the merciless portion (AFAIK).

Level-headed making an strive to realize the draw it all works but per chance there might additionally very well be some agreed components of developing rooms, esteem naming them after sub Reddits.

So reading the github page this sounds principally esteem a variation on RSS.

There are a necessity of web servers that host direct material (both at free of price or for money) [called relays].

Purchasers ranking fresh posts

Identification is in accordance to public key, allowing users more withhold watch over and the skill to simply switch relays.

So is RSS + pubkey based fully identity the upright components to deem of this?

That is roughly my first notion too: the conducting looked esteem pubsub with message authentication and with out federation. Was about to raise up “Atom and RSS, mailing lists, NNTP, XMPP, ActivityPub, Matrix” as examples of current protocols able to that (to a bid extent, and veritably with more functionality), notion so that you can add Mastodon to the list of examples too, but the README already mentions that Mastodon is undesirable thanks to the dependence on area names/administrators (and in diversified places mentions undesirability of operating servers by users, of getting many servers, while considers simplicity from the point of peek of in-browser JS, interestingly), that the servers are not bustle well, and loads others; seems reasonably opinionated and smitten by this protocol, so I wager these current protocols might additionally no longer fulfill all these requirements both.

Within the origin restrained from posting it, since or no longer it’s per chance rather grumpy, and the authors seem to possess an extraordinarily good time with the protocol, but here it’s some distance.

The checklist spherical relays seems to me esteem basically the most suspect portion of this when it involves scaling.

The protocol doesnt need users to bustle their be pleased servers, but there also are not indubitably any incentives to bustle relays, so what occurs when it will get nice ample that operating a relay is costly or non-trivial? I be pleased esteem it can per chance upright topple wait on to users operating their be pleased servers esteem in mastadon.

They aloof possess to exist. The same old motive for current is to profit from their vitality over users. When its cheap to host folk will slay it out of the goodness of their heart, once it hits scale the goodness tends to dissappear.

That is how I deem of it. RSS with particular person-created public key identities. A complete bunch client fan-out to quite loads of relays. And an straightforward components for someone to put up (not like RSS)

Relays possess to work out how no longer to get smashed with too grand data. I predict they’d require an memoir/login at some point soon. Nonetheless that you might additionally put up to lots of relays and drop relays that put no longer support you well at any time.

I esteem to evaluate it more esteem (ragged) Usenet with pubkeys. It will get more at the distributed database ingredient.

Not announcing here is the future, but something esteem it’s some distance. The total core choices here are exact (pub key identities, signed events, tiresome relays).

There are aloof strategies that many apps will need comparable to tying lots of devices to an identity, abuse prevention for relay operators, etc.

“The total core choices here are exact (pub key identities…”

I agree, rather than for the bit about public keys as identities.

I deem public key identities are a step in the upright direction, but there’s aloof a hole between that and what the final solution goes to complete up being.

We must possess some layer of indirection between particular person identities and public keys in explain that users can slay things esteem rotate keys, possess lots of keys, and enhance their identities.

I don’t know what the upright map to that is; I deem it’s an open notify and per chance probably the most biggest ones to solve. Keybase probably came closest to a correct solution, but it indubitably wasn’t decentralized.

I became reading about algorand rekeying as we order time, besides as DIDs and atproto/bluesky.

Both seem to inform a “signed rotation” components. Algorand retains your public key exact while adding metadata that your use key has modified and links the 2. Atproto in an identical draw makes inform of the restoration key to imprint a rotation op which would per chance regenerate your signing key, additionally readjusting the tree to preattack convey (by atmosphere prev of the rotation to the final precompromise convey).

This seems esteem an enchancment of some kind, but aloof leaves gaps for misplaced keys. Keybase kind components, or multisig social restoration might additionally additionally support.

Until Algorand can steal away the CGO requirements and libc JS dependencies then I’m hoping it can per chance additionally no longer ever be regarded as for something esteem this. Let’s no longer also fail to keep in mind about their awful administration.

I wasn’t suggesting both of the technologies wholesale. The “signed rotation” commonality looked exciting, with subtle differences. I’m uncommon to head making an strive the place DIDs lag, I’ve seen these slash up a pair of places.

UCAN also seems exciting, JWT with extra steps and attenuation. Nonetheless orthogonal to this difficulty for basically the most portion.

Is there a kind to complete what that you might additionally very well be suggesting with identities? I manufacture no longer deem there might be. How will you rotate keys with out a master key?

And even ought to that you might additionally very well be okay with the master key, the fitting components to solve this with out centralized suppliers is with blockchains. A blockchain for rotating keys doesn’t kind sense.

Nonetheless I slay must clutch ought to that you might additionally very well be okay with a master key and subkeys which will additionally be rotated.

“Is there a kind to complete what that you might additionally very well be suggesting with identities”

There are indubitably solutions, but I don’t know what the handiest solution is, hence why I called it an open notify.

An example solution might be something esteem having your identity be a hash of your initial public keyset, making every key possess a situation expiration date, adding fresh keys by signing them with probably the most current keys, and then storing the final rotation operations in a transparency log.

“the fitting components to solve this with out centralized suppliers is with blockchains”

That’s no longer apt; you per chance desire a transparency log, but that doesn’t require blockchains.

How will you rotate that? No one is conscious of the second secret’s linked to the first. You continue to possess to put up your second key somewhere collectively with an invalidation certificate for the first key.

Rotate keys: ragged key indicators an event indicating that it’s some distance being rolled into a brand fresh key.

A pair of keys: nothing to alter. Works esteem that now.

Get better your identity: Successfully, ought to that you might esteem a well-identified identity inform NIP-05/NIP-35 and upright switch your .well-identified/nostr.json file to display your fresh identity, the particular individual that hasn’t been stolen. Optimistically nostr purchasers of your followers will respect that (who’s conscious of what programmers indubitably will slay).

I deem these complications are more uncomplicated than you trust they’re.

About a ideas which possess been tossed spherical for relay abuse prevention:

– Proof of labor: computing so me hash, which is no longer ample to be laborious but ample to lower unsolicited mail

– micropayment over Bitcoin lightning community

Proof of labor by assignment of computing ought to aloof be a non-starter for someone caring for limiting environmental harm.

Bitcoin is carbon-negative give it some notion or no longer. Not that CO2 emissions are a principal measure of environmental stewardship.

I fully, unequivocally slay no longer give it some notion.

Bitcoin consumes 111TWh yearly, the vitality consumption of the Netherlands, and emits 62Mt of CO2 per year, the identical as Belarus. It also yields 42kT of e-slay per year.

Every transaction produces 650kg of CO2, consumes 1160kWh of vitality (as grand as 40 days consumption for the favored American dwelling) and produces 450g of e-slay (in regards to the identical as hucking your iPad into the rubbish can while you transact on-chain).

97% of all Bitcoin mining hardware might additionally no longer ever successfully create a single block in its complete precious lifestyles, going from factory, to position heater, to garbage can – while about 60% of the total vitality consumed comes from oil, natural gas and coal. So whoever purchased producers the offsets I exhaust you wish to be alluding to better possess replanted the total Amazon rainforest by now. (Hastily spoiler, carbon offsets are also a rip-off, in general talking).

To whisper that you might additionally very well be going to possess to get some sources is an understatement about as grand at Bitcoin’s environmental footprint.

Yow will discover all this in [1] or that you might additionally upright reverse it yourself from the specs of the latest AntMiner and the scorching hash rate. Some napkin math is all you will need.

I am in actual fact amazed folk aloof factor in something so trivially falsifiable, but with every little thing else happening in 2022…

[1] //digiconomist.accumulate/bitcoin-vitality-consumption

> 97% of all Bitcoin mining hardware might additionally no longer ever successfully create a single block in its complete precious lifestyles, going from factory, to position heater, to garbage can

This is a indubitably disengenuous point. Mining works probabilistically, and mining swimming pools payout in accordance to smaller objects of labor that probably possess some likelihood of finding a block for the pool. The truth that a block itself is a grand parcel doesn’t kind the draw much less ambiance pleasant.

The purpose is a centralized identical of bitcoin might additionally bustle on a raspberry pi. Heck a proof of stake bitcoin might additionally bustle on a raspberry pi. It’s a ridiculous draw even Hal Finney notion became unsustainable 10 years previously.

Price judgement aside the seek info from became “is it carbon neutral” and the acknowledge is a resounding no.

That is an fully diversified topic/point. I became responding to your ridiculous point that 97% of bitcoin miners by no components earn a block. You didn’t even strive to protect that point.

What is your source spherical Hal Finney? I indubitably possess no longer heard that.

> That is an fully diversified topic/point.

The truth now we possess a draw the place 97% of the total tools is no longer traditional to ever slay the relaxation precious and as an substitute “develop safety” is an insanely wasteful draw. No person has quantified what level of “safety” is required. There just isn’t any feedback mechanism to drag wait on in accordance to need for the explanation that need is principally unquantified. It be a grey goo kind uncontrolled certain feedback loop.

On every occasion more miners arrive on-line or no longer it’s lauded as “more safety is most exciting” – but how grand safety slay you will need! The acknowledge is no longer “as grand as that you might additionally possess ample money length no note-up questions.”

You possess no longer got 75 seatbelts in your automobile on memoir of “safety.” You do not inform a dump truck to steal your teens to varsity on memoir of “safety.” And likewise you don’t inform a world military of computers ingesting 100+TWh/yr to assignment 2-3 tx/sec on memoir of “safety.”

In a roundabout draw or no longer it’s some distance a half of-baked safety model, and Bitcoin is a half of-baked proof of theory that escaped the lab and gained a cult following.

> What is your source spherical Hal Finney? I indubitably possess no longer heard that.

My source is Hal Finney [1]

[1] //

You didn’t realize my point. If bitcoin had 1 minute blocks as an substitute of 10 minute blocks, larger than 3% of miners would earn a block in their lifestyles time. Nonetheless that switch on my own would no longer switch any principal properties of bitcoin. You deem bitcoin is a complete slay, I get it. Nonetheless that statistic doesn’t support your argument.

> The acknowledge is no longer “as grand as that you might additionally possess ample money length no note-up questions.”

That you might per chance additionally very well be upright, and that is no longer how bitcoin works. The volume of mining ought to aloof be definite by the block reward, market imprint, and expenses per block. Mining in draw over here is no longer economically rational, and need to not happen. So it’s some distance no longer “limitless safety” at any rate”

The place in that tweet does Hal symbolize bitcoin as ridiculous or unsustainable?

> Nonetheless that switch on my own would no longer switch any principal properties of bitcoin.

Sure it can per chance, it can per chance switch that resource rate per transaction.

> You deem bitcoin is a complete slay, I get it. Nonetheless that statistic doesn’t support your argument.

I disagree, if 97% of servers at AWS possess been there for some hand-wavey belief of ‘offering safety’ with out quantification I deem Amazon might be roundly mocked.

> That you might per chance additionally very well be upright, and that is no longer how bitcoin works.

Sure it’s some distance. You upright re-acknowledged my convey with rather diversified wording.

I stated the protection model became “as grand as that you might additionally possess ample money.” That you might per chance additionally possess ample money block reward plus expenses times imprint. The safety model is “use as grand of that as that you might additionally with out regard for what or no longer it can per chance be fundamental to complete safety.” The difficulty is that block reward plus expenses times imprint is no longer a intention of how grand safety is required.

> The place in that tweet does Hal symbolize bitcoin as ridiculous or unsustainable?

I by no components stated ‘ridiculous’ – obviously I manufacture no longer deem Hal would kind that claim, so let’s follow what I did impart 🙂 I deem it’s some distance no longer unreasonable to extrapolate from his tweet that he factor in that at the restrict CO2 might be an difficulty. CO2 itself is an difficulty of sustainability. That you might per chance additionally disagree with that interpretation, but I slay no longer deem that a median impartial observer would earn my reading unreasonable.

You seem to be making an strive to lift an argument at all charges, putting phrases into my mouth, operating with uncharitable interpretations and arguing in contaminated faith – in this thread and the diversified. When you happen to read fastidiously that you might earn I paid close attention no longer to switch goalposts. I will lower it off here. It be particularly silly on memoir of you possess already admitted you settle to my premise that it’s some distance no longer all the time carbon neutral.

Possess a correct night even when.

> I disagree, if 97% of servers at AWS possess been there for some hand-wavey belief of ‘offering safety’ with out quantification I deem Amazon might be roundly mocked.

All every other time, you fail to realize that the need of a machines that earn a block might additionally very well be modified by making the blocks smaller. That you might per chance additionally slay that by also reducing block dimension to assign the total need of transactions the identical. Nonetheless the better point is that mining swimming pools kind it in explain that mining machines are paid for partial work, even with out finding a block. This permits the utility of mining to be measured by hash rate, in earn 22 situation of by need of blocks solved.

You called it a gray goo kind certain feedback loop. It is miles no longer, there’s a better lunge on how grand would per chance be spent. There just isn’t any feedback loop besides, if the rate goes up, more would per chance be spent on mining, but that doesn’t feedback to kind the rate lag increased as required for a loop. Moreover, the block reward is exponentially decaying.

Your reading of the tweet is that a particular person announcing a draw ought to aloof inform much less CO2 implies that particular person believes the draw is unsustainable. I manufacture no longer deem that is practical, e.g. an Airline CEO launching an initiative to lower the airlines CO2 utilization would no longer factor in that the airline is unsustainable. I did misinterpret the diversified portion of your assertion– you stated bitcoin is ridiculous, no longer that Hal stated that.

So grand FUD.

1) miners profit from vitality surplus. They slay no longer manufacture fresh vitality vegetation. No person is firing up a brand fresh coal plant to mine bitcoin. That is absurd.

2) miners possess incentives to search out and inform wasted vitality. For ex, flare gas recycling. Which indubitably helps the ambiance.

3) miners can flip on/off at will, and create vitality masses on seek info from. That components they steadiness out the vitality grid. Especially from erratic vitality sources esteem wind and photo voltaic. This is already being deployed in some states.

That you might per chance additionally very well be combating on the unsightly aspect buddy.

(1) They literally reopened a natural gas plant in Fresh York, the place possess been you? [1] the broader point is this fossil capability can upright be turned off if we stopped wasting it on a bitmask lottery. You don’t possess to assign it up fresh capability to cause harm (even when they’re doing that too).

(2) burning flared methane is most exciting than no longer but no longer flaring at all is handiest? There’s no such thing as stranded vitality, there’s biggest missing transmission infrastructure which is being incentivized no longer to arrive on-line by winning slay at point of generation.

(3) elevating the baseline utilization level by slay then turning it off when there’s a brownout level crisis is upright an asinine notion to administer load that charges all people money. Stuffed with life seek info from administration is an right solution. So is grid storage. Also, “some states” is Texas, famously the worst vitality grid in the US, dwelling of the blackout. Within the meantime Fresh York is banning wasting fossil gas vitality on miners.

Anyways you seem to raise no data to the table diversified than a “nuh uh” and some obviously unsuitable apologism.

No word on the ewaste?

It seems to me you’re utilizing the “facts u detest” acronym expansion for FUD.

[1] //…

If the worth of the transmission infrastructure charges larger than the economic rate of the vitality it can per chance transport, you then possess stranded vitality.

Ravishing, I disagree but even when I possess been to concede indubitably there’s a bigger solution we are able to deem of than having a peek up a pleasant resistor.

The seek info from is how grand so called stranded vitality is there, what percent of Bitcoin vitality utilization does this memoir for and is there indubitably nothing precious we might additionally slay with it? In the end with “stranded coal” is it better to upright no longer inform it?

This is upright a talking point traditional to distract from the right points. Basically the proportion of renewables wasted on bitcoin mining is at an all time low. The seek info from at difficulty became whether or no longer all here is carbon neutral, and no, it’s undoubtedly no longer.

The distinctive comment that bitcoin is carbon negative is ridiculous, I agree. Nonetheless that you might additionally very well be posting empty/unsightly rebuttals besides.

Within the case of flare gas, it’s some distance a byproduct of gathering oil that is unavoidable. The oil is economically worth collecting, but the extra gas is no longer. I deem this might additionally very well be more finely rupture up into natural gas vs methane– in most cases the natural gas is worth collecting, but the methane by no components is.

That you might per chance additionally argue that there ought to aloof be regulations to power the methane to be unexcited and conventional in diversified places as a condition of having access to the oil. That would per chance be general better. Nonetheless forward of bitcoin, that perfect solution became no longer indubitably implemented. On this sense, bitcoin mining of flare gas is a step forward.

Cowl that the argument is no longer upright that economic rate is created by mining bitcoin, but that operating the gas by a generator outcomes in cleaner combustion and thus much less greenhouse gas emission than merely lighting the gas on fire. On this sense, the bitcoin flare gas mining operation by itself might additionally very well be regarded as carbon negative (all every other time, indubitably all bitcoin mining is no longer). The bitcoin mining can pay for the generator. So bitcoin mining is giving the industry a subsidy that enables reduction of environmental harm. It is miles no longer perfect, but it indubitably is an enchancment.

> Nonetheless forward of bitcoin, that perfect solution became no longer indubitably implemented. On this sense, bitcoin mining of flare gas is a step forward.

Sooner than bitcoin they flared it – or didn’t. Now there’s an economic incentive no longer to search out one other solution. Now the oil and gas companies are incentivized to end that better solution on memoir of there’s something in it for them no longer to. So we kind it more sturdy to solve 100% of the notify on memoir of this will get us 5% of the components there and might additionally pay us no longer to.

Frigid, so that you moved the intention posts from announcing “there just isn’t all the time such a thing as stranded vitality”, to announcing “yes, bitcoin is reducing the environmental influence of flare gas burning, but we ought to aloof be doing something else as an substitute (no concrete ideas) that might solve this notify even better”. I indubitably possess explained to you the draw bitcoin can possess a accumulate certain influence on the ambiance, given current practices. You now impart that since here is no longer an awesome solution, we ought to aloof return to harming the ambiance more, presumably since you possess already made up your ideas that bitcoin is flawed?

Digiconomist’s model is unsuitable and doesn’t signify right mining electricity inform or carbon output.

Also he’s a central banker, so no longer precisely motivated to repair it.

> Bitcoin consumes 111TWh yearly, the vitality consumption of the Netherlands, and emits 62Mt of CO2 per year, the identical as Belarus. It also yields 42kT of e-slay per year.

it biggest consumes as grand as the complexity required to roll out fresh blocks. As its imprint goes down so does the vitality required to search out fresh blocks. It is miles no longer static.

I gave fresh numbers. Surprisingly (and clearly sadly) the rate switch hasn’t had an influence on vitality consumption commensurate with the drop. There might be loads that goes into it – for instance rate foundation of vitality: theft of vitality, graft, corruption, etc. When you happen to might additionally very well be in a convey to earn the vitality then it’s some distance no longer fundamental grand so long as that you might additionally possess ample money fresh miners.

tl;dr: imprint per coin represents something of a bounding intention on consumption of resources (including mining hardware and electricity) but it indubitably’s no longer as tightly correlated as hoped.

My point even when is the premise all that consumption has been papered over by what I exhaust is soliciting for some offsets – and now or no longer it’s magically carbon neutral – is silly and clearly unsightly.

I suspect that you might additionally very well be being deliberately obtuse, but it indubitably bears repeating that there are many straightforward activities which might be forbidden by policy, and it’d be upright silly to argue that there need to not be any.

May per chance well very well be worth going with “enhancement proposal” as an substitute so that you don’t call your governance paperwork “nips”.

If every little thing goes by relays then is it indubitably P2P? Why no longer even strive to possess a straight away connection of any kind, comparable to WebRTC?

That you might per chance additionally argue that it’s some distance no longer all the time apt P2P, since you depend on a public-facing middleman.

Hundreds of p2p protocols cheat with relays, it’s some distance indubitably hard to traverse nats otherwise.

Nostr might additionally additionally be traditional for peer discovery to bootstrap a straight away p2p connection.

That you might per chance additionally additionally inform a client/relay hybrid application, reminiscent of diversified p2p networks. That is prone to be fun to manufacture. 🙂

Is electronic mail p2p?Can you configure lots of relays esteem MX data for electronic mail? Can a receiver be its be pleased relay?

Relays are fundamental for 2 causes: peer discovery and talking when probably the most parties is offline. Same as with diversified p2p networks.

I imply, the pure P2P solution might be supernodes.

Edit: i RTFA. Sounds esteem relays might additionally additionally be bustle by someone. That sounds p2p ample to me.

Mountainous seek info from! Relays are not fascinated by curation or discovery, so it topple on the client.

That you might per chance additionally set a query to very astronomical subscriptions from relays! As an illustration, here’s a space that subscribes to every little thing, exhibiting you a gods-appreciate peek of events streaming into a relay:


Events possess diversified “kinds”, so that that you might additionally filter this in accordance to the form of traffic that you might additionally very well be shopping for (esteem public posts or particular person profiles).

Platforms esteem are more particular person-pleasant, and provide better tools for discovering users and direct material.

That you might per chance additionally subscribe to a particular person’s feed by assignment of their pubkey, so discovery recommendations in general revolve spherical finding out pub keys.

How slay you behold users to possess a look at on Twitter?

I doubt someone has ever been winning into signing up on any social platform and upright followed the nice names which might be immediate automatically before every little thing or in accordance to a pair “key pursuits” you exhaust.

Nonetheless hello, ought to that you might esteem that, or no longer it’s straightforward for a third-birthday celebration online page to clutch a ton of public Nostr data and manufacture custom-made recommendation lists and whatnot.

Crypto folk talk esteem this to notify aside real projects from ones that possess been purchased off the shelf and launched by entrepreneurs/hustlers. I’m guessing the guy who wrote here’s a crypto one who doesn’t realize the slang is so native.


It feels nice when a protocol has its core devs on the identical wavelength as application devs. That is the sensation I get with nostr.

Even ought to you bought something off the shelf, it became aloof constructed by any individual (presumably “builders”), even when that any individual isn’t you.

shill: One who poses as a contented buyer or an eager gambler to dupe bystanders into taking part in a swindle.

It be no longer shilling. It be recommending. Shilling is a contaminated thing. It be a straightforward thing.

> A relay doesn’t take a look at with one other relay, biggest without lengthen to users.

Can you elaborate on this point? It would seem that meshing relays would’ve facilitated the dispersal of updates.

Of us in general put up to 5 or so relays for censorship resistance. When you happen to would esteem to possess a look at them, or no longer it can per chance be fundamental to hunt info from no much less than 1 of these 5 relays.

Nothing in the protocol specifies relay-to-relay conversation, but nothing stops them both.

The incapability of folk to spell Mastodon appropriately will persistently surprise me. Also, is no longer « nips » a slang for nipples ?

It is miles, but it indubitably also components diversified things too: nip in the bud, a nip of alcohol, to nip off with something, to nip by, etc.

I don’t realize —- this isn’t a P2P protocol because it isn’t peer to head making an strive by definition. And the “relays” don’t even relay the relaxation … a “relay” is a server acting as a Dropbox that you possess got to hunt info from.

At this point I manufacture no longer peek grand point in adopting something that doesn’t toughen ActivityPub. I would rather upright inform Mastodon/Pleroma/Akkoma with some heavy blocklists.

I’ve been having a peek at substitute implementations since I manufacture no longer must bustle the total Mastodon app for upright myself. The truth that every single ActivityPub implementation runs into so many interoperability points, such that they need to be fixed to work with every diversified draw one by one, is an indication to me that the protocol is both too strong or no longer sturdy ample (probably each and each).

There is grand rate in a rather more effective protocol, particularly if it can per chance dwelling the identity migration points that Mastodon has confronted since day one.

> so many interoperability points […] the protocol is both too strong or no longer sturdy ample

From what I’ve read, it sounds esteem the interoperability points arrive from no longer enforcing AP the identical components as Mastodon in earn 22 situation of the relaxation particularly protocol-linked. Therefore, e.g., Pleroma going out of its components to be Mastodon suitable as a kind intention and GoToSocial having quite loads of points on memoir of it hasn’t but long past that route[1]

[1] e.g. they possess got an difficulty the place some client apps don’t work with GTS on memoir of GTS doesn’t advertise a version number sufficiently excessive ample – for the explanation that apps are shopping for “v> 2.10 on memoir of that is when Mastodon presented intention Z”.

A tiresome straightforward message relay protocol might additionally additionally be traditional for stuff diversified than social media.

OTOH websockets are hard out of doors the browser 🙁

Per chance years previously but now Websockets are lifeless straightforward to inform in nearly every language. Heck that you might additionally even pipe to a websocket server utilizing websocat utilizing the shell.

Truly, websockets are trivial beefy end. I implemented an online socket proxy in C in a day by reading the very preferrred RFC (certain, there’s unfamiliar shit in there, but it indubitably’s no longer hard).

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